EXCLUSIVE BERNAMA INTERVIEW- TUN MUSA HITAM: Conflict weakens UMNO & Government.; Destabilize nation: Dr M “right .. and win all the time”

Tun Musa Hitam in a wide ranging 75 m interview with Bernama suggested that Dr Mahathir is suffering from “Post Prime Ministerial Syndrome” which cause him to think “he is only right” all the time. He is speaking up because the “national interest” is at stake. He sees the conflict as an attempt by Dr M of weakening UMNO by driving a wedge between the leaders when he stated his preference for Najib.over Abdullah.
He also stated that this conflict can waken the morale of UMNO, Government and people and may destabilize the nation in the eyes of investors. Of the promises made to former PM, Tun Musa mentioned that the promises to the people are more important as more facts are known about the cancelled projects. He is saddened by the turn of events and strongly felt that Government polices must be changed and made adaptable to the needs of the people. The conflict of opinions between PM and the Dr M a negative impression of preference of Najib over Abdullah He also stated Dr Mahathir loves nothing but fights all his life. He thrives on fights and confrontations and when Dr Mahathir fights, he wants to win.

The following is the Bernama's despatch

Tun Mahathir Undergoing Post Prime Ministerial Syndrome - Musa

By Mohd Fisol Abdullah and Jamaluddin Muhammad
June 09, 2006 14:52 PM

KUALA LUMPUR, June 9 (Bernama) -- Tun Musa Hitam, who stepped down as deputy prime minister in February 1986 following differences of opinion with former Prime Minister Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad, knows very well the outspoken style of his former boss.

To him, Dr Mahathir's open criticism of Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi recently, is not only improper, but does not augur well for the
party and nation.

For all the elder statesman's remarks, Musa said in jest that Dr Mahathir was undergoing a post-prime ministerial syndrome, which caused the former premier to think that "only he is right."

According to Musa, he had also experienced a similar syndrome but he managed
to check himself. I just told myself to shut up. I told myself...look give up, withdraw. You cannot go on doing this. Let the others take over. They can do. They may or may not be doing as well as I want to do but they are now in place.

"They have been given the full support, the full support of the party, of the rakyat. I suggest stop interfering with them," he said.

In a 75-minute interview with Bernama at his residence in Bukit Tunku here, Musa said he decided to speak up because he did not want the situation to
get out of hand.

"All I can say now is that... Dr Mahathir just stop it. Enough is enough. Don't do anything. If he continues (with his remarks), no one will gain. Only Dr Mahathir will be satisfied, but those who are against us will benefit," he said in the interview with Bernama news editor Mohd Fisol Jaafar and its senior journalist Jamaluddin Mohamad.

Musa also said if there had been a promise between Dr Mahathir and Abdullah before, it should not be binding but what was important was Abdullah's promise to the people who had been given the mandate to him as prime minister.

Below are the full text of the interview with Tun Musa Hitam:

Bernama: Tun, please share with us your views on this conflict of opinions
between the former Prime Minister and the current administration?

Tun Musa: What I am saying here are all my personal views as I no longer hold any positions. I am no longer in the government and in actual fact, I am outside the government, not related to any post, such as formulating policies or trategies in the administration.

This is how I see it. Tun Dr Mahathir (Mohamad), since stepping down as Prime Minister, had often times said that firstly, he would not interfere in the affairs of the government and politics. Although he had been saying this since his departure from office, what I can see is that, he has not stopped doing something. All the statements he made, contradicted with his promises.

This time, I feel a sense of remorse over Tun Dr Mahathir's criticisms which
were levelled directly or indirectly at the administration of Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi.

On a direct level, I have had a conversation with him at one time and heard his views which were seen as criticisms too. Indirectly, I heard people talking and reports in the newspapers on his criticisms.

At that time, that was considered normal, especially (criticisms) from a former minister, Prime Minister or Deputy Prime Minister. That was a normal phenomenon.

But in the past one to two months, Tun Dr Mahathir seems to be unabashed. Tun Dr Mahathir had cast aside the ethics or tradition which had long been known among the Umno members in general, when he blatantly and openly criticised Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi.

(He) not only made criticisms on issues but also used "very unkind words to the Prime Minister."

"The most unkind word" of Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi was that he (Abdullah) was not his first choice as (Datuk Seri) Najib (Tun Razak) was the one who garnered the highest votes. But it was clear in Umno's history itself, that was a norm.

Dr Mahathir was also No. 3 then. I was also No. 3 before. This is not an issue but he had brought it up intentionally. Not only that, by saying that Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi was not his first choice, and that Najib was better, he appeared to have directly wanted to split the two. I am very much saddened by this. I am worried it may bring negative effects.

Bernama: Negative implications? What do you mean?

Tun Musa: Yes, negative implications which seem to be telling Najib, "I like you actually. You are better but not Pak Lah." Under the present situation, I feel it is not proper, and it is the opinion of a former Prime Minister which can only weaken the morale in Umno and the government.

We should not forget that Datuk Seri Abdullah Badawi had been chosen by the people with a large majority, in fact larger than what was achieved by Dr Mahathir. Even the votes polled by Dr Mahathir were not as high (as those achieved by Abdullah). Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi secured larger votes.

In my view, the overwhelming mandate given by the people to Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, was because the people wanted a change after 22 years under Dr Mahathir's stewardship, and one of the strengths of Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, who received the support of the people, was the expectation that he would be different from Dr Mahathir.

Abdullah Badawi is not Dr Mahathir and Abdullah Badawi had given hope to the people that his administration would be more open, transparent, more tolerant, and would allow more press freedom, among others.

Now we can see that, and no one can deny that all these have taken place and are different from Dr Mahathir's era.

I realise that Datuk Seri Abdullah Badawi has his own weaknesses. Dr Mahathir, in my opinion, also has many weaknesses but Dr Mahathir was given the support of the party and the people at large who had trust in the party.The people believe that the party can provide the leadership and administration, and in accordance with the aspirations of the people to develop the nation.

I have been regarded as Pak Lah's adviser. Actually no. I admit I do criticise Pak Lah. Only the Prime Minister knows, when I met him, I criticised more than offering praises, without fear of being honest.

What I am suggesting here, is there is no reason why people like Tun Dr Mahathir cannot do likewise. More so when Dr Mahathir was the head of the administration and party leader, he had always wanted Umno members who wanted to criticise the government, to do it through the proper channels.
Dr Mahathir says he is an ordinary person, hence he is an ordinary member. As such, he should behave like an ordinary member, that is to follow tradition. Dr Mahathir would not tolerate those people who made statements, criticise the government outside the party or do not go through the (right) channel. In my view, there is no reason why Dr Mahathir cannot do as I did.

Bernama: You mean, going through the right channel?

Tun Musa: Yes, through the proper channel. His tirade would not benefit anyone except the opposition party. I know many Umno people had been criticising the Prime Minister from before till today. There were allegations of corruption during Dr Mahathir's time. He said there was no proof. Dr Mahathir now claims that there is corruption (under the present administration), but, where is the proof. Same argument.

Bernama: Tun, you just said this action will weaken the morale of Umno members, the government and the people. Do you see that happening?

Tun Musa: Who said that? Tun Dr Mahathir, the former Prime Minister, former Umno President. Whether we agree or not, that's not the question. The question is that it is the former Prime Minister who unashamedly levelled criticisms at the present government led by Umno and the Barisan Nasional. There are Umno party members and those among the Barisan Nasional who are depressed (by this state of affairs).

Bernama: Do you see this having an impact at the international level and the international views on Malaysia?

Tun Musa: One of the impacts would be economic analysts and investors inferring that there is some troubling development within Umno which is the major and most important party in the country.

It gives a sense of deja vu to me. I feel the sense of deja vu, of a repetition of history. Previously, Tunku Abdul Rahman criticised Dr Mahathir when Dr Mahathir became Prime Minister. The situation became rather unstable. And how did Dr Mahathir criticise Tunku Abdul Rahman. But then, Dr Mahathir was not the Prime Minister or an ex-Prime Minister. He was a backbencher then. How Tunku Abdul Rahman, who strongly criticised Dr Mahathir, but he (Tunku) then was with those who had left Umno and formed Semangat 46. It had a big impact. How an upheaval came about. But the Tunku was an outsider, the founding father of Malaysia.

This involves a person who was Prime Minister for 22 years. Someone who is really rooted. What I can say is that times are different. Dr Mahathir's time was different, things are different for Datuk Seri Abdullah Badawi. Their styles are also different. Both of them are different people and their make-up are also different.

In terms of interpretation, is difference in personalities also of national interest? I don't subscribe to the thinking that interpretation or inference "is the monopoly of only one man".

If Dr Mahathir says something is "against the national interest, then I must speak up", then he too should respect that when Datuk Seri Abdullah does something, he is doing it in the national interest. More so in many matters that Dr Mahathir has shown dissatisfaction, I am sure they have been discussed by the Cabinet.

It doesn't mean that ministers who had previously served under Dr Mahathir's cabinet, cannot be different in Datuk Abdullah Ahmad Badawi's. In their opinion, times have changed, the situation has changed and it is they who determine what is "in the interest of national interest", so they change.

Bernama: During the time of Tun Razak, the subject of Science and Maths, the education policy, everything was taught in Malay. He (Dr Mahathir) changed it during his premiership. He changed Science and Mathematics to be taught in English. Is he also not revoking something?

Tun Musa: I have made my criticisms on the matter. One morning I woke up to find that everything has changed. Science and Mathematics have been taught in English. Overnight. In one night it has changed. This is an issue of utmost importance in the history of Umno's struggle all these years. I am not against the change but the way it was done. (It was) changed without debate. It has become fait accompli overnight. Why? The government under the Prime Ministership of Dr Mahathir had decided to change it without taking into consideration the policy formulated by Barisan Nasional and Umno. The issue here is how it should be done.

That was an issue of national interest, which could be debated but there was no debate. Fait accompli means it cannot be further questioned. The question now is on the role of the former Prime Minister. Is it constructive criticism or is it destructive? Of course he (Dr Mahathir) said it is constructive, he said it is of national interest. I said it is beginning to be clear that it is going to be destructive and when you talk about national interest, to me the present government is as good an interpreter of national interest as Dr Mahathir claimed to be during his time.

Bernama: Among the points raised by Tun Dr Mahathir was that his successor has turned back on his promises to him. That Datuk Seri Abdullah more or less agreed not to change Tun Dr Mahathir's plans and policies. My question, is it wrong for a successing government to make adjustments and invoke changes to policies or plans set by the previous government?

Tun Musa: What I understand is he (Dr Mahathir) said Datuk Seri Abdullah has turned back on his promises to him. His promise to him. Two issues here. I don't know what was promised or have been said, or happened between the two leaders.

Assuming that Pak Lah had made a promise to him. To me, what is important is not what he had promised to the former Prime Minister, but what was promised to the people. Whatever promises and pledges made when they took the reins of power, were done in the interest of the people, nation, race and religion. For the nation. Again, for national interest.

When he first became the Prime Minister, he probably did not know then. Now he knows in depth. He says this is wrong, this is not suitable. In the national interest, this is not good. What's wrong in making changes. We must remember that ultimately it is the rakyat who will decide whether a
government led by a particular leader, by a particular party is fit to govern or continue to govern. That is the essence of democracy. We cannot say one is not working for the national interest. Yes, the current leader with his Cabinet and the whole administration is backed by the people.
In my opinion, Dr Mahathir is a man with supreme confidence of himself. He is supremely confident of himself, of his capability, to the extent that he could not find anybody who could be better than him. The fact that he had four deputy prime ministers, and each one whom he claimed had stabbed him on the back, speaks quite a lot about this man. After he has chosen whoever he
is, he is not going to say, "You are doing the right things." He will continue to say this is the way to do it. He cannot get used to the idea that after 22 years of administration he needs to accept the reality of different people dealing with things differently and interpreting things. differently. This is what I feel.
During my meeting with him, he had openly said: "You stabbed me on the back," I am not afraid to say this. He has said many times before, "You stabbed me on the back". I accepted this in good humour, politically. To me, I did not stab him on the back, I thought he stabbed me on the back. That's politics.

If it is said that the current Prime Minister stabbed him on the back, the way he does is to retaliate. Stabbing the current Prime Minister on the back. That is not right. That is not helping anyone except those who are against the country, party and our government. Those who like to see Umno destroyed, those who like the government destroyed, those who like us to fail are the ones who agree with him. Who is he helping? I am sure he will be dismissing with defiance.

I have decided to speak up. I have not made such comments before. During Dr Mahathir's time, I expressed my thanks to him. Despite having left the government for a long time, I have met him a few times as the former Prime Minister, fought with him, as a result of my differences with him. I expressed my views. I made my criticisms, and there were times I expressed the sentiments of other people as I believed that was the only way to deal with it.

Bernama: Tun, you mentioned that you even criticised Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah but not openly.

Tun Musa: Yes, I criticised him. If only the walls could talk. If you could ask him, he would be frank about it. I think I am one of the few who really criticised rather than advised him. I am not his adviser. I am his critic. I am a very blatant critic of the Prime Minister. He accepts it beautifully. You may criticise and if he has not changed, that's not my problem. I think whatever he agreed or not agreed, or whether he changed or not, he must think for himself. He has to make decisions. It is only two years as Prime Minister. I think more people need to meet him, to criticise him. I am so critical of him, I will tell you frankly, some of his boys are beginning to say: "Musa is anti Pak Lah. I am never scared of them. I have nothing to lose or gain. Nothing at all. I am not interested. I have no agenda at all. I criticised him".

Bernama: On what matters?

Tun Musa: I am not going to tell you. If I tell you now I will become Dr Mahathir.

Bernama: Among the subjects raised?

Tun Musa: On administration, politics, what is happening in the country. He (Pak lah) will not deny this.

I am prepared to be the runner for both of them. Several times when I played
golf, I dropped by at Dr Mahathir's house. Having sat down, I said: "Come let's have a chat."

He can call the Prime Minister. I am sure this Prime Minister is the last person to say no. Just call. Invite him for makan (meal). Come over. Come on, we have been in the same party, we have similar objectives. That is national interest. My wish in the interest of the nation, Dr Mahathir changes his way, his methodology of criticising the leadership and the government. In the interest of unity of Umno, Barisan Nasional and in the interest of morale, I hope Dr Mahathir changes but I am sure he is going to say: "I don't care. It does not matter".

It does not matter whether he cares or not but it is my duty to say this.Its effect, it is going to be, it is beginning to be showing signs of destructiveness and divisiveness within the party. Surely he does not want this. I am very happy that Number One, the Prime Minister is keeping his elegant silence. Number Two Datuk Najib has made a very constructive statement in his calls for everybody to give undivided support to the Prime Minister and his leadership. Not only within Umno but within the Barisan Nasional.

These are very encouraging signs made by younger leaders who have taken over from Dr Mahathir who have taken long ago from me, I think these leaders are treating it in the right way. But I need to be straight forward.

Bernama: You said earlier you believed that it was not in his interest to see the party divided. But looking at the record, when he took over the leadership, somehow he permitted these things to happen. He stated that he would like to see contests for the deputy president. He permitted you (Musa) and Tengku Razaleigh. Even the second round, he admitted and retained Tengku Razaleigh. The first round you could have just said the position is vacant.
The second round you (Musa) were already there. You were the Deputy Prime Minister. Your subordinate came to challenge you. By right, there was no excuse for the second round. He retained Tengku Razaleigh in the Cabinet and then later on subsequently bitter by his style of his leadership, the party split seriously. The matter was taken to court. It was during his leadership that Umno was banned. He cannot run away from these historical facts.

Tun Musa: I prefer not to rehash old issues. That's another story. The only thing relating to your question is when I mentioned about the divisiveness with Najib by saying: "Oh Dollah is not first choice. Najib would have been" . I countered him by saying in the history of Umno, it always was never the first choice, he wasn't either. What's the big deal in Umno anyway. By saying that, I interpret it as though he is trying to divide the two. That is why I gave the compliment to Najib for supporting Pak Lah and to the Prime Minister for keeping quiet.

There is an attempt to divide. We should not allow that to happen. Umno members, Barisan Nasional should not fall into the trap, especially the leaders have to beware of the divide and rule scenario. No divide and rule, he is not ruling. I mean, trying to split the leadership by that statement. There is a lot in his statement. This is not the first time that Najib is the one. In other words trying to tell Najib: "Actually you are the man I wanted. This man is not good". That's why I compliment Najib. That's the point. This divide and rule thing has been around since long ago, it's a long story.

Bernama: He was the number three vice-president. When you stepped down, he took Ghafar in. Ghafar was the third vice-president.

Tun Musa: I was also number three. Tengku Razaleigh was number one. After that when Tengku Razaleigh won number one, he said he wanted to fight again.

Bernama: Tun, did you expect this to happen?

Tun Musa: Yes I did. I am not surprised because as I said Dr Mahathir can never... I told you from the beginning. I said from the beginning that Dr Mahathir had said: "I am not going to interfere in the government. I am not going to interfere in politics" but from the beginning he has been doing exactly what he said he was not going to do. I am not surprised simply because that I used to joke in a way that Dr Mahathir was suffering post-prime-ministerial syndrome. Now I have the impression that he is suffering from severe post- prime-ministerial syndrome. Only he is right.

Everyone suffers from it, just to a different degree. I suffered from post-
deputy-prime-ministerial syndrome but I controlled it. I just told myself to shut up. I told myself look give up, withdraw. You cannot go on doing this. Let the others. Let the others take over. They can do. They may or may not be doing as well as I would like but they are now in place. They have been given the full support of the party and the people.

I suggest to stop interfering with them. The people have decided on these people. That was my attitude and that is still my attitude. This is only logical. That is what democracy is all about. You look anywhere in the world. Former leaders, they just go. There are few exceptions. Alan Garcia of Peru who was president at one time but then he decided to come back and stood for election and just became president again after 20 years.

Bernama: You used to be a deputy. Assuming this scenario, if you were in the Prime Minister's chair today, what would you do?

Tun Musa: If I were the prime minister, I can tell you I would not be as polite as Abdullah Ahmad Badawi.

Enough is enough. Don't say you don't want to interfere and the next moment keep making statements to the contrary.
Habit of choosing the wrong people. Had it ever occurred to him that he had
been wrong rather the people wrong. The people cannot be wrong. The boss was wrong.

Petronas money is not government money. Petronas money is the people's money and the government should know it must be used. The people's money should not be abused. In this matter, surely Dr Mahathir will say Putrajaya is a
very good project. O.K. he was the prime minister, he built it. If the current Prime Minister says no, then it should not be. He can't start condemning Abdullah for that.

Bernama: Tun, did you call Tun Mahathir or Prime Minister Datuk Seri
Abdullah recently?

Tun Musa: No. It so happened, he (Datuk Seri Abdullah) was officiating the
World Islamic Economic Forum Foundation on Wednesday night. I sat next to
him. All I can say is that, the amazing thing about him was that, he was so
calm about it. He did mention it. He said he would deal with it in his own
way. He did not throw up a fit. He was not falling into the trap of
responding. Dr Mahathir loves nothing but fights all his life. He thrives on
fights and confrontations and when Dr Mahathir fights, he wants to win. This has always been his stunt in life. Here, as far as he is concerned he wants to win. He is supremely confident of himself.

Bernama: You mentioned that you are prepared to play the middle man's role.
Would you?

Tun Musa: I don't like to use the word middle man. My argument is that I have been seeing Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi at the right occasion at the right time. One to one. Most, if not all the time criticisms, were very frank. Very open, even may have sounded rude to some but he accepted them in good faith. Amazing, he has. So there is no reason why Dr Mahathir cannot do the same. In the interest of the party, in the interest of the nation, so as not to rock the boat in accordance with the traditions of the party, why not? Considering everything, Datuk Seri Abdullah Badawi will only be too happy to receive him, to listen to him one to one. I think he would appreciate it. Anyway, I feel so strongly about this, if I am needed to be the running boy to fix appointments, if necessary, so be it.

Bernama: Could it be Tun Dr Mahathir's way of doing it is not right?
Shouldn't he have met Abdullah and raised it directly in an open, sincere
and transparent manner?

Tun Musa: Such openness is good in terms of governance. That is, the government should be open about what's happening. Freedom of information,
freedom of the press but the openness of the former Prime Minister in making
such harsh criticisms against the Prime Minister can best be described as
going overboard. The line of positive constructive contribution has been
overstepped.

Bernama: To your knowledge Tun, do such things happen in other countries?

Tun Musa: I have never heard of it. Never. This is about personalities. Other countries don't have a Dr Mahathir.

In most of the democratic countries, immediately after they give way, they just come for functions to show support. In the United States, not a word of support, not a word of criticism (from senior George Bush to his son George W. Bush, the president). Even in Singapore, of course Lee Kuan Yew still holds a position but there are no open criticisms. Even in Thailand, former prime ministers do not interfere unless they are still active in politics. Chuan Leekpai is still active in politics so he has the right to be.However, it is of no point to compare with other countries.

If Dr Mahathir is still Prime Minister, he would have said: "This will cause
disunity. Don't do this. Follow tradition."

Bernama: Tun, are you sad over what had happened?

Tun Musa: I feel sad. I am very sad that it has reached this level. I really wish the party can resolve it. I shouldn't say resolve. This matter should be dealt with by the party leadership, among themselves. I don't know how, but I have full confidence the current leadership can deal with it.

All I want to say now to Dr Mahathir... enough, enough, don't make matters worse. If he still wants to continue, no one is going to gain from it. Only Dr Mahathir will be satisfied in the end but those who will ultimately gain are those against us.

Bernama: Tun, did you have any gentlemen's agreement when you stepped down, to keep quiet?

Tun Musa: Never. Never. I used my common sense, my principles, my democratic principles, I am no longer the representative of the people, I am no more in the government, I have retired. So I speak for myself. No agreement, but as I said I saw Dr Mahathir often. Often enough. I never went to see him to praise him and he knew it. He always had time for me. Never tried curry favour with him. Never did. Never asked for anything either. We discussed issues, a lot on international relations. I conveyed issues which I thought necessary and important matters, to him myself.

Once in a while, we had arguments but it was always in good spirit. So I don't see why he cannot do the same thing with the current prime minister. Maybe he thinks he is too superior. That is not our problem. That will be his biggest problem to overcome. If he is really sincere.

Bernama: Tun, can a plan or policy be changed?

Tun Musa: Yes. Only the Quran cannot be changed. Only Allah's words cannot be changed. In politics and government, adaptibility and flexibility are the most important principles in government, based on feedback, information and knowledge. Knowledge-economy and knowledge-government.

Bernama: Perhaps Tun Dr Mahathir sees Pak Lah as too soft and unable to make decisions?

Tun Musa: It is not good to say something like that about someone. Then, the intentions are not good.

Bernama: (Dr Mahathir)'s anger at being accused of spending the nation's money...

Tun Musa: Incidentally, I have never heard the Prime Minister say so. Not even to me. He (Pak Lah) did tell me about deficits. This was when he just took over, before his second year was over. He was quite pre-occupied with deficits but Dr Mahathir did not bother about it. But it is not uncommon in government that one leader agrees that deficit spending is better while another says deficits should be controlled. It is a normal debate in the administration of a country. Dr Mahathir did not bother about deficits and Datuk Abdullah Ahmad Badawi was worried about deficits and he tried to reduce and he did it. But in the process, this angered Dr Mahathir. One should not get angry over this...

Upadte 1: See Dr M: Crying for answers
See also Dr M youngest son Mukriz comments
and Datuk Hishammuddin, UMNO Youth Chief Comment
Seee previous post on: REACATIONS to Dr M outburts